#like yeah yeah there’s a lot of nuance here and i Do sympathize with him to an extent

[neixins]

maybe if zeno realized the folly of wanting to end the other dragons’ lives along with his own without ever asking them if that’s something they’d even want (which mirrors the injustice of the dragon gods not letting him die regardless of his wishes) i might be able to sympathize with him more. or whatever it was that jane austen said

[gudvina]

what changes would you make to sunrise on the reaping, if you were able to?

This question would require a thousands pages long essay as an answer, but I'll try to be brief and concise for the purpose of clarity.

1. The shoe-horn writing

The writing first and foremost. There was no need to dumb down the points in such a way that they feel narrow and with little to no nuance.

Not only does it imply the readers are stupid and illiterate, it's also a disservice to the themes of the story because they deserve to be treated with complexity.

2. The way the themes were executed.

I honestly don't mind the idea of the rebellion taking many attempts and failing before the trilogy's events, but SC's heavy use of revisionism to the point of denaturalisation of the way certain characters or plots were presented did not do the book any favour.

There are certain things that are unrealistic for them to be so retconned in the books. Mags and Wiress being his mentor first and foremost, because it's quite unrealistic that it wasn't known fact in CF.

3. The characterisations.

The way Haymitch's character was presented in Sotr is wildly different to the way he was presented in THG, and there was no need for him to be changed so much.

Yes, Haymitch was sixteen. Yes, when we see him first in sotr he was untainted by what would eventually happen to him. And yes, trauma changes people. But him being a little grumpy, sarcastic and snarky at 50 and a complete sweetheart in his youth with no bad bone in his body isn't realistic. In Italy we have a saying that goes "if you were born round, you can't die square", and while life can change certain aspects of your character, it doesn't mean that certain key features won't stay there.

And I'd give him more agency, making his participation more active instead of passively listening to orders or having everything he has learned in life coming from Lenore Dove.

I have already touched Lenore Dove's character, but so I won't go into much detail here, but i would definitely make her a more rounded person with a defined characteristic, instead of sacrificing her character for the purpose to sprinkle unnecessary parallelisms.

And would definitely eliminate the weird idolisation and the fridging. She deserves to be her own person outside of Haymitch's perception, and to not be a narrative device to further Haymitch's arc story and her death should have been handled in a more delicate way, instead of a scene thrown there just for shock value.

Sid and Ma would also get more exploration, and a better place in the novel, instead of being taken for granted by the narrative. Them being his family doesn't make it less worthy to explore as a dynamic.

4. Certain features of the story

First of all... Chaff. How come we get explored Haymitch's friendship with Katniss' parents or with Beetee's son, but there wasn't a single mention of Chaff? Really? Come on.

I would also change Effie's rebel sympathizer family members and would change the way Effie enters into the industry, because as I've already touched upon it strips her character of a lot of agency complexity.

Also I'd give back to Maysilee the connection to the pin, because I don't like the way it was stripped from her and sort of "assigned" to Lenore. It didn't have to be like that.

I would also change a lot of how Beetee was written, because not only did it not feel like him, but it also takes away the impact of his actions in CF.

5. The parallelisms.

I don't mind a few here and there, subtly placed in a strategic way, but this heavy amount of parallelism strips the story of originality and of independence from the og trilogy.

Certain narrative choices, without them, feel almost nonsensical or out of place.

These are only SOME of the things I'd change, and if you'd like me to go more on detail on certain points you are free to ask, but yeah. I hope my ramblings made some sense!

[sublime-is-the-silence]

I'm not defending Calypso. I don't agree with her actions either.

I'm just side-eyeing the way the fandom is hating on her and not all the other gods that have caused Odysseus pain and torment on his journey home. Why does she get the worst of the hate?

Yeah, trapped him on her island for 7 years. But this is also the musical that has:

God of Wisdom raising him to be a soldier since childhood (something tumblr is very wishy-washy about if it's good or bad in media)

Demigod Cyclops who kills his men after receiving an apology and a gift of wine

God of the Sea who creates a storm to keep him from going home, killed most of his men, tried to drown him multiple times, threatens to flood his homeland, stalking him for over 10 years to try and kill him for pride at this point

Daughter of a Titan/Witch who turned his men into pigs, tried to kill him with a chimera, tried to "seduce" him and then stab him

Thunder King of the Gods who put him on that island in the first place after killing the remainder of his crew and destroying his boat (there's no way Poseidon wouldn't have gotten to him otherwise), refused to let him go until God of Wisdom is near death

Most of those gods/demigods are either beloved by the fandom or the fandom at least finds fun to make fun of. All I've seen from people who don't like Calypso is downright loathing. And arguably, what the other gods did was far worse than what Calypso did. Why are they all getting so much love while Calypso is treated like a monster? Seriously, I've seen people thirsting after Poseidon more and more every time he appears, and he's actively trying to kill Odysseus! People thirst after Circe but she did just as bad, if not worse, than Calypso. So where's their hatedom?

What's the one thing that those gods don't have in common with Calypso? (Spoilers; Calypso is a dark skinned black woman).

Y'all don't have to like her. I certainly don't. But the level of hate for Epic's Calypso is seriously giving off "I hate black people" vibes more than "I dislike this character and character's actions" vibes.

this is a lot of lmao for me.

First off, it's not that serious, it's literally a fictional piece of media and people are allowed to like who they like and dislike who they dislike and there does not have to be some deep ideological reason for it. Second, as an actual Greek Mythology buff who read the Odyssey for school and drinks problematic fave juice in general not just for Greek Mythology, I have always hated Calypso and always will so that dark-skinned hater bullshit does not apply to me at least.

Big point here: all the characters in Epic are nuanced and have different motivations for their actions and they can all be understandable however it is up to the discretion of the audience to decide who they like or do not like based on their actions. PERSONALLY I do not like Calypso because homegirl heard the man say he was married TWICE and was just like "well that do not matter I want to keep you as my sex toy/'lover' forever" with no regard for his wishes OUT OF THE DESIRE to not be lonely. And that actually makes it worse for me than Polyphemus, Circe, Zeus, or Poseidon because they at least are acting out of defense of their name, dependents, etc. Calypso is just wantonly keeping Odysseus against his will because she can and wants to and believes she knows what's best for him.

(Also for the record, I hate Zeus and am not exactly fond of Poseidon although I enjoy the songs he sings and understand his motivation even if I don't agree with it. I do also enjoy Calypso's songs even though their content makes my skin crawl as a SA survivor.)

I UNDERSTAND Calypso's motivation but I do not sympathize with it, it is selfish and ignorant and entitled and i do not feel sorry for her at all for getting left alone again, she made her bed. She thinks that because Odysseus washed up on her island, that means he's destined to be hers regardless of what he's saying his wishes are.

I think the big thing you're missing here is that Calypso is a thief of autonomy; a BIG THIEF of autonomy. The shit that goes down with Polyphemus, Circe, Poseidon, and Zeus only takes up three years. Then Calypso takes SEVEN YEARS AWAY from Odysseus. She is the lion's portion of why it takes him so long to get back to Ithaca. She keeps him from even leaving the island. At least with the others, he had the ability to move around but Calypso makes even that impossible. Kind of make sense to hate her now?

Also, she is keeping him hostage with the intention of using him for sex out of a twisted notion of love and whether or not she actually does so is up to interpretation. But as one friend from the fandom put it, if the genders were reversed, the fandom would be in agreement that the captor is a terrible person and there'd be few to no fans. And it makes a lot of sense for the haters to just HATE her if she's at the very least a sexual harasser if not a sexual assaulter. End of the day, she's a sexual predator no matter how far she got.

Anyways this is fandom so I'm not genuinely upset if people misinterpret my reasons for hating a character but long essays of BS deserve long replies herego~ Also another fandom friend likes Calypso BECAUSE she's problematic so sit with that for a minute.

[daistea]

thrun is not the submissive one. He might bottom here and there, but that's a position, not a role. I also don't like this shit because I see it with basically every character I like. They're a bit feminine. Okay, sure. But then every edge on them is sanded off until they're disgusting smooth. It's like this gross contradiction of excess fragility. It skeeves me the hell out because it takes a lot of the cool traits and feminizes them totally and basically says "Hey! Being feminine isn't cool or complex or edgy. It's soft." Like. Hey. Hey. That is so fucked? Do you not realize that?

Feminization literally so often takes away what is so interesting and meaningful to a character for the sake of shipping and I've been dealing with it since L fucking Lawliet. And I'm tired. I don't care. Make the guy the bottom if you want. But when people get rid of traits and characterization and change the guy to do it, it's like... ???? I don't know.

Maybe just do it because you want to instead of making it some gender thing? It's weird when people go "femme = bottom". You are remaking gender roles! At that point, I dunno, why are we not writing straight sex?

And honestly, I have lots of thoughts about sexuality and dominance and I think there are so many interesting ways to play it out other than physical strength, which, by the way, if you're going off of that, it's Mithrun!

There's coercion. There's mental dominance. There are so many interesting ways to be dominated beyond pure strength that it seems silly that conquest would come down to only that. You've got this guy, knife-sharp, which is to say smart, and incredibly blunt. He's ruthless, relentless, single-minded. And you're making him the fucking submissive? Like. Okay. Sure. Maybe sometimes. But I also think he's impatient, actually. I think you push him too much when he wants and he decides it's his turn now, and God help you.

There are so many interesting ways to explore the dynamic and the feelings and him as a person. He's a stubborn menace. And it's so neat to make the dom a brat, too! Ugh. The bicker. The banter.

I agree with all u said, here’s a Yeah

I know a lot of it is just societal. We’re trained to assign roles, and when we do that our brains go okay here are the traits associated with those roles :)

I feel like a lot of modern fandom should’ve moved on from that by now, though?? And with dunmeshi especially, you’ve got bearded manly-looking men who cook and garden and sympathize/care for everyone he meets��� traditionally feminine traits. You’ve got dwarf women who are stronger than the main character— Namari. Youve got a whole race of characters who look and dress generally feminine, but the main elf is ruthless, he disregards others’ feelings and lives, he’s blunt, he kills people and he does it in a skirt LOL

(I know it’s not technically a skirt but the concept remains ✌️)

Mithrun’s traits are traditionally associated with masculinity. (Women are like that too, though, and actually I want to see more women written like that!) Anyway, despite that, he still gestures in a feminine way sometimes. He’s like if a man and a woman had a baby. Mithrun isn’t necessarily defined by specific roles, which is a consequence of his backstory. That’s how he’s written. He has the capacity to both submit and to dominate— which uh, most real people do, I think. To an extent. I don’t mean sexually, I mean in a relationship. Most emotionally developed people sometimes submit, sometimes grow more dominant, depending on the situation. But what do I know? The world constantly surprises and corrects me.

If ya wanna make Mithrun the bottom in physical moments, go for it. But just because that is considered a traditionally feminine role does not mean he has to be feminine. His characterization/personality does not have to morph and change to fit what sex position you want him in.

Anyway sorry for the rambling, what I’m trying to say is that dungeon meshi has nuanced characters. And I feel like assigning gender roles + the traditional traits of those roles to these characters erases the many dimensions they were written with.

On a physical note, I believe it also subconsciously stems from who’s smaller— another societal norm. I like a good size difference, don’t get me wrong, but I don’t think size necessarily equals role. Just bc Mithrun is shorter and can be easily manhandled does not mean he’s an uwu sub softboy who needs coddling. (I think for him, specifically, it also plays into how his disabilities are subconsciously viewed. But that’s a whole other can of worms to snack on.)

If you insist on giving roles, I think it’s actually more fun to give the little guy the more dominant role!

And I do understand why some people gravitate towards dom/sub top/bottom roles. There’s nothing wrong with that. All I would like to see is some brain power behind the characterization and portrayal.

There’s a lot I can but will not say about shipping in fandom. I adore shipping, don’t get me wrong, but I’m just very funny about Mithrun.

In the end, creativity is about fulfillment and joy and expression! If you wanna use these characters to portray your fantasy/tastes then go ahead. But if you want to portray them in canon-accurate ways, with real relationship dynamics, then all I recommend is to not put as much importance/significance into roles. Look at the characters on their own. Canon is your reference, not fanon.

eepy

[igdrasii]

So the foot licking scene.

Gonna be honest, I expected Subaru to be less sympathetic then he is here to me…? But like, I actually sympathize a lot here.

Subaru seemed to be on the cusp of rejecting Priscilla’s “opportunity” as she puts it due to his anger, but instead of giving into said anger like he did with Crusch, Subaru seems to have pushed it down because he muses that “if he gave into these feelings, and charged in ahead, these negotiations, too, would end in failure.” - the prose here seems to show to me that Subaru genuinely tried to apply where he thought he went wrong with Crusch in a constructive way.

“When he thought of the agony-filled deaths of Emilia and the villagers had to endure, how could the humiliation Subaru would taste in their place even compare? To avoid that hopeless future, to find the world he needed to reach, he didn’t mind being a dog or worse.” - see, Subaru here is basically degrading himself as a dog similar to how in the Crusch convo he didn’t mind being a dog either if she’d fulfill his request. Subaru himself basically doesn’t have enough self dignity (plus mix in the fact Subaru is basically akin to a animal with how he’s so fixated on one thing unlike a human mind that can comprehend more nuance) that it makes him do this ask of Priscilla’s because he views it as the way to save the people he cares about, and letting his own personal Pride get in the way of that would be unforgivable in his eyes.

Unfortunately for Subaru, I think (though this is conjecture since I don’t know a crazy bunch about Priscilla yet as a person to be frank) Priscilla was looking for him to stand up for himself & not do this, and she’d have given the help if he did that. Subaru, in his effort to learn from his self admitted screwup with Crusch, does something that would offend Priscilla the most due to his lack of understanding the people around him even though he did try to learn from his situation with Crusch.

Priscilla says Subaru’s got “neither loyalty nor faithfulness” and like… I think I can understand why Priscilla thinks that, however it’s patently untrue. I’d argue Subaru has too much of those 2 qualities which is what even led to the dude staying at Roswaal Manor even when he should’ve run the hell away after Rem tortured him.

As for Priscilla’s remarks on Subaru being “lazy” yeah, I just can’t agree. I suppose the “pig’s greed” thing I can actually agree with her on based on my commentary from this chapters title. Deriding him for a “dog’s existance” is actually 100% fair Imo, but even when Subaru improves latter in this Arc, the guy outright verbally considers himself Emilia’s dog to Wilhelm’s chagrin so despite him in the future fixing a bunch of the issues Priscilla has with him this conversation, that one still solidly remains.

Admittedly, I could think of this scene differently when I get to know Priscilla better as a person since I can’t see a story like this just making her some smug arrogant bitch stereotype & Arc 5 did show hints of more sides of her underneath that arrogance of hers, but for now this is where my opinion stands.

[ideologyofone]

Love your fic but I cannot for the life of me wrap my head around the choice to make Ekko/his firelights enforcer sympathisers. What led to that decision?

This is a genuine question btw. I don't mean to be accusatory, I just desperately wanna know considering the little montage he's introduced with in s1 shows his Firelights being very opposed to enforcers. It's a big part of their identity as Firelights if the montage/music video is anything to go by.

I'm talking about this whole passage in chapter 5 where a firelight steps up and speaks about her Dad. "However, on progress day, Officer Leon Romer was one of six enforcers killed in an explosion in the academy district caused by Jinx."

I get why in-universe it makes sense the other Firelights aren't exactly gonna jump up and say insensitive stuff to her about her dead dad. I'm not lost on that. I'm moreso wondering why make that writing choice given what the show tells us about the Firelights? Was it just to create more tension between Jinx and the Firelights/Ekko?

I think there may be a little bit of a nuance here and there's definitely more than one way to look at it. I definitely don't see Ekko or the firelights as enforcer sympathizer's, Ekko especially which is one of the main reasons why Ekko doesn't put up much of a fight when Jinx suggests using enforcers as gineua pigs for her paralytic solution test and stealing their uniforms.

The main point of Saoirse talking about her father being one of the enforcers Jinx killed was primarily to create conflict and it wasn't so much as Saoirse was upset her dad was dead bc she loved him but that she had finally decided to meet with him and get closure on their relationship and considering the fact that Saoirse openly admits her father was a pos with a gambling addiction who abandoned his family I doubt there would have been any genuine reconciliation between them, but even so with Jinx killing him that opportunity- whether it be reconciliation or complete estrangement- was taken away from Saoirse which is what she was upset about not because she loved and appreciated her enforcer father but now she'd never had the chance to tell him how she really felt about him and like you said no one around her is gonna be like 'ah he was an enforcer anyway fuck him who cares he died' that's just bad manners

And along the same lines bc I've seen people say this a few times- the firelights in my fic are *not* pacifist, there is a moment where Ekko gets into a pretty big fight with Jinx about killing a group of Silco's men and he tells her that they, the firelights, don't kill people and I think a lot of people took that and ran with it but you have to remember you don't have the full story until the story is over because like 6 chapters later Scar tortures one of Silco's men and Ekko says nothing which causes a fight between him and Jinx where she calls him a hypocrite but his original statement still stands they don't kill people but they're not at all opposed to violence and he admits to committing acts of arson, severing limbs, breaking bones etc. and I believe it's in chapter 11 where Ekko explains that killing people is what's Silco does to control people and get his way but if they were to do the same what would make them any different than him if they're both claiming to want what's best for Zaun and killing for control of the other faction

so yeah, I know you didn't ask about the last part it was just something I wanted to explain, hopefully this makes a litle bit of sense, Ekko and the firelights definitely aren't enforcer sympathizers in my eyes and if that's how its coming across in my writing that's certainly not the way it's intended to be I think that they're all about keeping the peace amongst their community and keeping quiet if they don't have anything nice to say and please feel free to ask me anything about what I've written it is not accusatory in the least and it gives me a chance to go back through and really think about what I'm writing vs what it's saying

[llycaons]

ep24 (pt 1): jgs stopppp for real stoppp

the first 1/3rd of this episode dragged a bit but the rest had such juicy character conversations between wwx and important people to him that it was a really good time

see! he can be tactful! he's very polite in addressing this overstep, and he doesn't even give jgs an answer. he just says 'we should leave it up to my sister, who's actually the one getting married'

*sprays water on him* YOU'RE NOTHING

why did jc look at wwx while saying this. it was deliberate. I've never noticed before. wtf

this was kind of funny. jgy says some vague pleasantries about how all the clans are struggling and everyone's like 'oh fuck...this guy is on to something' and lxc is looking all pleased

jgy looks so intense all the time it freaks me out. also. HIS GRANDMA?? jgs's mom??!!! damn I don't remember this

they love this angle

ohhh wwx remembering jfm teaching him to shoot arrows so kindly...he breaks in a big smile immediately after this. it all hurts

this is jc, destroying the herald of the wens above the door of lotus pier's entrance hall. it might be the first time we see him use zidian, and he is SEETHING in anger. that means something!

it's so pretty in there and there is so much space! I have this sense of it as very minimalist but it's really not, it's just restrained and reserved, like it's inhabitant. and very spacious

lwj's first stab at defiance. he doesn't want to copy the rules, he wants to help wwx. but lqr seems to see him as a lost cause, or near enough to be dangerous to lwj. lxc is sent instead, the more objective one, the politician

to his credit, I can see this speech inspiring people who lose a lot to the wens. wwx is looking a little dead-eyed to me, but jyl is proud!

ohh background jumpscare

I like how his turmoil is expressed here. and his dark brown eyes are so beautiful

I've seen posts like 'it's not the lan clan rules' fault that the sects are corrupt' but I think it's disingenuous to act like they don't play ANY role in lwj's decisions or his mistakes. they're clearly source of internal conflict for him, and a significant amount of his character growth rests on elevating himself to a state in which he can make his own moral decisions based on his own judgement rather than obeying authority without question

okay I know he's doing his best to lead and improve his men but look at his face in the first expression. SO angry and contemptuous

he's stressed and alone, and jyl clearly is trying to pick up his slack, and it's not fair this happened to him, but. dude. you gotta be nicer to your guys. I can't believe more people didn't quit after this treatment

in fairness wwx did say he'd help and then left to go drinking without explaining why he's so tired and unmotivated and unable to help, and that obviously doesn't look very good to jc, but jc also handles it really immaturely too

while jyl extends compassion and understanding for the difficulties wwx is having, jc rejects any attempt to sympathize with wwx. when asked to consider his feelings, he instead insists that his are the priority. he's such a strict thinker, no flexibility or tolerance for nuance at all. he sees wwx as a spoiled kid who slacks off and leaves jc with all the work, which is pretty incredible (in a bad way) when you think about how dedicated wwx was to jyl and jc after the massacre and the war. it's a little more forgivable pre-sunshot when wwx goofed off a lot, but post sunshot? after ALL that? he may be struggling with a lot of responsibility, but like, dude

but yeah, SUCH a selfless character 🙄

edit: oh jgs and jgy had a really annoying conversation earlier on that I didn't screencap but it SUCKED. that's where the title comes from

[transhawks]

your last meta abt enji is very interesting and nuanced. i think its the closest one to what hori is trying to say that ive ever read. im one of those ppl that can relate to touya and dabis anger so i dont relate to whats going on with endeavor. like in the beginning his atonement felt to me like humiliating shoutos, reis and eventually dabis characters, and i still cant find myself caring for enji. but tbh so far theres no malice in the way hori writes it so lets see where it goes.

Thank you.

I just think there's a lot of resistance to the idea Touya might love/want his father. It's definitely not the... idea we had years back. The Dabi reveal(s) threw a lot of fanon out the window as to Touya's backstory and motivations and I think a lot of people have trouble moving past that too because it also means looking at Enji a little more.

But also, and I want to be clear - the vast majority of people opposed to Enjidemption and anything that goes with it are people who are abuse victims. That's why I respect that so many people are upset by this narrative. It upset me too. I have a very complex relationship with my own folks, and come from a culture with an enormous amount of mandated familial closeness (divine-ordered) and guilt/shame if you don't follow through on it, so I get the emphasis on ties with your parents being important no matter what that certain cultures like to impose. I understand wishing, wanting, some reassurance that our reactions to our abusers are fine - that we don't need to allow them back into our lives if we so choose.

But I also think it's important to note that the Todoroki family is complex! Not everyone has the same reaction to the abuse! I'm pretty sure if Natsuo hadn't been pressured by Fuyumi he might have cut off Enji completely!

Victims do not all think the same (which MHA does do well in showing), do not all want the same things, do not all have the same feelings in regards to their abusers. It kind of hurts when I see people take an extremely severe stance on this because as much as I can hate Endeavor-defending, a lot of time when it turns to criticizing Horikoshi's choices, it skews or nears hating on victims who choose to have contact with their abusers or complicated relationships with them despite admitting to the abuse. Or to those who, despite everything, still feel some love for their abusers (aware we are, that the love we get back is a conditional mimicry of the love we wanted). It goes into victim-blaming; "if you were strong and correct you'd cut contact and condemn them." or "if you really genuinely were abused you wouldn't still be there".

Again, I acknowledge that those of us who don't personally favor reconciling with abusive family have the short end of the stick when it comes to societal views. And there's nuance; some of us love our parents but cannot have them in our lives.

Abuse is complicated! Trauma makes for irrationality and inconsistency in thoughts and feelings, heck, just mere human existence does that too!

But yes, I don't think it's malicious on Horikoshi's part or him "misunderstanding" abuse as I've seen said for years on here. That charge never sat right with me given the consistent theme of child abuse, especially the focus on over-bearing patriarchal figures throughout this work and in Horikoshi's other works, I think we should also acknowledge all of that is coming not from Horikoshi misunderstanding abuse, but forming his own interpretation through likely his own experiences of it.

So, yeah. Shit's complicated and didn't go the way many of us hoped - but we can still sympathize with the anger at being rejected and discarded by a love one, even if we won't like the ending to this story.

Edit: I wrote this a few years back, but there's no shame in dropping BNHA if the Todoroki narrative and likely resolution are too triggering to you as a victim of child abuse or survivor of sexual assault. Take care of yourselves first.

[admirableadmiranda]

Man sangsang, I'm probably about to join you guys in getting hate despite barely blogging because of that post lmao. I don't even mind kinder interpretations of JC. I just hate that they are messing with a very specific flavor of JC that had it's own tag. They act like tagging "canon character" is a regular thing to do when I don't think I've seen it anywhere but here. But because of their inability to understand the word canon has no bearing on the validity of the post, it gives an opportunity to throw the word "nuance" at them as many times as I can since they seem to be unable to pick up on the nuance that a negative view doesn't mean character hate or bashing.

I remember when the creation of this tag happened. People getting harassed is never fun and shouldn't happen. But as someone who kinda enjoys watching drama from the sidelines the name of the tag was a joy to watch in real time. "Go make your own" -> "ok we will" -> "wait not that name". Perfection.

If they are so concerned with their post being 100% for reals correct interpretation, they should make their own tag. I've suggested "true to text Jiang Cheng" since obviously putting those words before the character name would make whatever is in the post true to the text in the same way any post in the canon Jiang Cheng tag proves the post is canon... As in not at all but maybe it'll make them feel better about themselves.

Oof, I hope you don’t! That would really suck if you were to get hate just for expressing your frustrations. I at least was prepared for it and invited it since I did blaze my post about the tag. But you’re not even part of the whole mess, so they had better leave you alone.

Yeah, I don’t think I’ve seen “canon character” as a tag anywhere else, though most fandoms don’t usually have such a… broad divide between a fanon and canon interpretations. I actually don’t mind a softer JC all that much myself as long as he’s tagged so I can decide if I feel like him today or not, and of course WWX isn’t getting all the blame for stuff going on.

Haha, are you at least having fun with the new word of the day? I agree, having a negative view really doesn’t have to be bashing or even disconnected from the character. Otherwise how would we ever be able to enjoy any villains? Some characters are just not made to be positively sympathized with to begin with.

Lol, yeah that was a lot of fun. I do remember those times fondly. They should have been more specific if they didn’t want me and my friends to have free reign of creativity on our tag. And you know what? It worked!

Lol!! If they do that, I would be happy. A single tag for me to filter out, peace and quiet in our time. I doubt it’ll happen, but also they ain’t winning our stalemate no matter how much Xicheng they put in the tag, so I’m sure that eventually it’ll be just another story in the MDZS fanbase to horrify and amuse new people dipping their toes in.

Thanks for stopping by! Your post made me smile this morning, even if it wasn’t a very happy post to begin with. I wish you all the luck in the world!

[mecha--maniac]

I'mma ramble the thoughts this very thought-inspuring post makes me think.

I do say a lot of stuff like him being my ickle baby boy who never did anything wrong and is perfect in every way, but I do want to preface with assurances that, yeah, I'm definitely joking :P By no means do I think Solaris is entirely sympathetic -- he's a god, and gods are almost never depicted as being perfect -- but I personally like to point out the sympathies a lot because the game sure doesn't, and most people will pick up on what they (almost certainly correctly) perceive as a biblical Satan/demon analogy, and thus are predisposed to assume he's evil for the sake of being evil, as those themes usually go hand-in-hand. This might be what the devs were intending to some degree, buutttt the story for the game seems pretty clearly unpolished, so it's hard to say for certain that someone on the team didn't purposefully add a lot of background trappings that imply the history of the area is more proto-indo-iranian than the modern european parts of the setting would imply, and thus the themeing could actually be more of an observation on how christianity absorbed traditions from other cultures and turned positive things into negative things, such as the neutral-to-positive origins of things like 'hell' and 'demons' and how they became synonymous with 'evil' and 'bad' when transplanted. It wouldn't change much in regards to good/grey/evil readings outside of evidence of author intent for nuance; but it would support that the past has been obscured purposefully at some point. Historically, it would have been obscured by the ruling class with something to gain, but since deities are a Real Thing here it could also be Solaris himself, and that'd be really cool to explore.

(But again I really do honestly think a fair bit of the game's story is an accident... I kinda assume the bg/asset team somehow had more time to work than the script writers, and so more of the environmental storytelling was completed than the actual scenes. This game was rushed to Hel and back, and the writers probably would have wanted to have added more detail and script revisions. I think they wanted to play with grey areas more, but didn't get the chance to actually put in the stuff they were building to with it, which is a tragedy imo)

And honestly, I love any reading of the character; good, evil, and especially especially the shades right in the middle. I'd like to see more done with the old story mentioned (I think about it a lot) and I'd say I'm surprised that I haven't seen anyone go down that 'Solaris was malevolent the whole time' road when exploring him... But this is the gay weirdo website, and historically gay weirdos tend to sympathize with the demonized monsters, so I'm not actually surprised he's usually played with more benefit of the doubt here (plus there's a distinct reverse correlation between tone of a subject vs tone of the fan interaction; the darker the thing, the lighter the fan content, and vice versa)

That old story might not prove Solaris has ever been malevolent, but that could very well have been the intention -- I always assumed it was, and assumed the average reading was 'oh the game characters have this story wrong, Solaris is secretly the bad guy here' -- but it's not proof, which I think is really really good for us that like to explore the many different possibilities! Folklore is one of my favorite world storytelling devices, since there's so many levels of truth and fiction that it could be, giving us something to build on and speculate with. The lines tell us for sure that there is a story about Solaris, but what details are truth and what details have been skewed over the years are so fun to imagine. It may sound to us -- with outside biases -- that Solaris faked saving the city; it may sound to them with their ingame biases that Solaris did save the city; but there's a whole lot in between there too. An incident similar to the story probably happened, but we can't say for sure. What inspired it? What are the lasting effects, if there was an event? What are the implications for what might be embellished? Did anyone mix it up on purpose, if it was? Or maybe the oral tradition has actually been pretty accurate and gotten the legend fairly accurate; in which case, what have the opinions of the citizens always been about the story, and how might they have changed? There's just a lot of juicy worldbuilding possibilities there :]

And while it seems like the obvious starter of the fire would be the fire god -- again, I like that interpretation too -- consider that devastating blazes that destroy entire cities are a thing that happen in modern times, and thus probably happened in any time period (probably more often, what without fire codes and such) so it's a possibility too that Solaris was innocent. A legitimate blaze could have just happened; and who better to douse it than someone that can control fire? Maybe Mrs. O'Leary's cow starts a fire; fire god cleans it up; fire god decides to be the city's patron; citizens honor patron deity with ceremonies. Or maybe there was even a mix, since we definitely can't know Solaris's intentions; maybe he did start it as a trick, but later legitimately cared for the people, only for the people to betray him so now mass murder is back on the table. Maybe it wasn't a trick, but he's pissed enough now to throw away the loyalty to his followers.

My point is there are a hell of a lot of interpretations to be made with what is frankly a scaffolding of a script, and that's what I like about it. There is extremely little we can confirm in the game, unless we see it actually happen, with all included intentions of the characters stated (for instance: Mephiles literally never kills Sonic. No blood; he comes back; even the characters 'sense he's still there'. Did he intend to? Maybe. Probably. The writing probably isn't that deep. But all he actually needed was Elise to think he was dead, so we can't say for sure he didn't pull a trick there.) Cause characters like Mephiles can seem all dramatic and evil and trickstery, but dude might just be ye olde theatre kid. And this leaves a loooot of room for different readings and fanworks that don't even need to actually contradict the game, since so little is known for certain. So; I just like to point out that it's possible this debacle was more a tragic misunderstanding of hurt people than a good vs bad situation; although it's also possible it was that! But most likely somewhere inbetween. I kinda imagine the writers probably went pretty basic with the ultimate theme being the usual 'you versus the bad guy' with the starters of some deeper stuff before corporate rushed the game out the door. I'd love to know what the real story behind development was, and if there was anything missing from the game or easily missed by audiences. This game is so fascinating to me.

P.S. I usually ignore everything after the game when it comes to interpreting it, but if we did count modern stuff, SXSG drops a damn bombshell with that 'I want to exist' line, and talking about restoring himself to the timeline. It's still just a theory, but man; that sure seems to imply he never was trying to destroy reality and/or time the way Eggman told everyone he was. That's just more fuel to the tinfoil hat 'Eggman was goading everyone on in that fight on purpose since he had a lot to lose, as Solaris was aware Eggman was trying to use him' theory.

P.P.S. Also, like, Solaris was confirmed for sure stuck inside a stick and a t(w)eenager for a decade, and I doubt anyone could come out of that making rational decisions. Meanwhile the other side are almost all children that have possibly been a bit rattled by all the time traveling, chaos energy, and trauma they've been injected with over the course of that three days or so (+for Silver and Blaze), so I find it hard to judge them, either. I can judge Eggman, though. Dude was definitely just a dick. He's proven that plenty.

P.P.P.S. Main complete fuckin mystery in the game to me beyond 'probably just an unfinished plotline' is the Mephiles trying to get Silver to kill Sonic thing. I don't see how it makes sense in any case whatsoever; if Solaris was somehow a saint, why the hell would he take such a roundabout route, particularly since he obviously didn't need to? If he was a schemin' demon, same goes -- why go so roundabout, why pick Silver for it, why get so complicated, when it backfiring was so obviously a risk? Maybe because he knew Silver had something to do with Shadow (vis a vis the lab incident) and maybe he found out Shadow was kinda-sorta friends with Sonic, so he just... Hoped it would be ironic for the half-moment between victory and pulling the plug on the timeline? I dunno man, and I'd love to hear more theories about that from folks, particularly since there's a lot of room for introducing ideas of there being limits or rules to Solaris's power/time travel/the universe itself/etc that might justify playin' what is essentially an intradimensional combination hopscotch/cat's cradle.

Tl;dr: Pretty much all bits of this game are up for wildly different interpretations, as little is ever actually confirmed, and we have a whole lot of unreliable narrators. I think that's beautiful. Thanks OP for your post, and sorry for ramblin' so much, but it made me think about the meta of interpretation <3

Just a heads up; I rewrote portions of this post to have a kinder voice and better get across the point I was going for, since the original post was a bit hostile. Apologies! I'm autistic and have trouble managing tone, especially over the internet. If you wanna reblog this post please reblog this version!

A lot of people recently have been posting about how Solaris as a deity is a sympathetic figure, and how he was a victim in the grand narrative of Sonic ‘06.

I really like this reading, but I'm also a fan of more gray and ambivalent readings. I’m gonna try to demonstrate how moral ambiguity is a theme that ‘06’s story definitely and intentionally explores, and note some important details about Solaris presented within the main game of '06 and its paratext:

To best illustrate what I’m getting at, I want to talk about Solaris chronologically. To do that, we need to discuss some deep lore that has come up on my blog several times in the past. (And no, it’s not the fact that the owner of the shops in Soleanna is named Enrique.)

Most people know that Solaris is represented by an eagle in Soleanna’s religion, but for those who missed the symbolism, Soleanna’s crest depicts an eagle standing proud with wings outstretched underneath a simplistic depiction of the sun, with the prominent feathers protruding outward in a manner reminiscent of sunbeams. Considering Solaris is known as Soleanna’s sun god and the eagle here is clearly represented as being a proxy for the sun (with the wing-sunbeams and all), and based on the fact Solaris’ physical form heavily resembles an eagle, it’s safe to say the eagle became a symbol in Soleanna due to worship of Solaris.

Additionally, the stained glass murals found in Kingdom Valley seem to show the eagle—Solaris—having some connection to or dominion over the day cycle, with the mural depicting this in a serene, positive light.

With that connection in mind, I would like to bring up the most insanely loaded and impactful throwaway NPC dialogue of any Sonic game:

Now, I’ve posted about this dialogue plenty before, but I wish to reiterate how this completely missable dialogue from some random woman in Soleanna’s New City contains deep lore that is heavily implied to be the origins of Soleanna’s symbol of their god, and may even be an origin story for Solaris’ worship in general.

The story is about Soleanna being overtaken by huge flames, until out of nowhere a huge eagle saves it. We know that Solaris’ physical form has the appearance of an eagle, so it’s barely conjectured to say that this story represents Solaris saving Soleanna—otherwise it would literally just be a narrative red herring. Additionally, the NPC specifically says that some people still believe the story to be factual, so this is clearly meant to be some manner of biblical non-fiction in the Solaris religion.

Clearly, this event sparked worship of Solaris, which, as previously mentioned, was viewed by the people of Soleanna as a positive deity—the “Eternal Sun,” which was paid homage to via the Festival of the Sun, which involved (description from the game’s official guide but this is also just what’s shown in the intro cutscene) “lighting a beautiful fountain of fire, bathing the city in the crackling glow of a thousand flames,” which I would say is representative of the great fires that overtook the ancient Soleanna, then afterwards “fireworks fill the sky, and there is much rejoicing by the general populace.” I would consider this as representing Solaris appearing from the call of the flames, but that’s conjecture—all that we need to focus on is what’s textually stated, which is that fact that there’s “much rejoicing by the general populace.” This is mirrored by the dialogue heard in-game, in which Elise, whilst lighting the fountain, prays: “Sun of Soleanna, guide and watch over us with your eternal light.”

The next event that we know of chronologically is, after somehow taking the form of a meager sentient flame, Solaris was entrusted to the royal family as the “Flame of Hope.” We don’t know how this happened, just that it did.

Later down the royal family lineage, we get to Elise’s father, the Duke of Soleanna. At some point, his wife—Elise’s mother—died, and conveniently the Duke then became infatuated with the altruistic idea of harnessing the power of time to allow his people to rectify past mistakes and avoid bitter fate. To that end, he started the Solaris Project, which aimed to study the Flame of Hope the royal family had been entrusted with and, more bluntly, manipulate the super-dimensional god-being Solaris for its power.

It is noted that the Living Flame had to grow larger for this power to be harnessed.

It is explicitly stated in-game that Solaris disagreed with this treatment. During the cutscene “The accident 10 years ago” which shows the Solaris Project experiment failing, a scientist notes that out of nowhere an electromagnetic pulse has been generated, which is causing a meltdown. The Duke responds to this by saying, “Why, Solaris? Why do you refuse to listen to my voice?” which suggests that Solaris itself generated the EMP, despite the fact that this causes it to fracture.

Furthermore, the game’s official guide (which should admittedly be taken with a few thousand grains of salt, as it’s a Prima Games guide and those are rather notorious) has this to say regarding Solaris and the experiment:

So, pretty cut and dry when you view it all like that in isolation, right? Solaris was a benevolent god that was abused by the duchy of its people and driven berserk from said abuse, which is why even after reforming its darkness and wrath it still sought to destroy all time.

Obviously no hate to people who prefer viewing Solaris in a strictly sympathetic light (I literally wrote a fanfic with that as a partial premise), but you have to admit that it muddies the narrative. And, additionally, what a lot of people ignore when they come to that conclusion is the fact that Solaris has shown malevolence.

First of all, consider the fact that the Flames of Disaster were a known thing in Soleanna’s faith—specifically known as Solaris’ wrath.

And when you remember the fact that Solaris takes the form of fire, and is known to be the being whose wrath is released in the form of flames,

Suddenly the story of the eagle has an alternative reading!

I am SO firmly in the camp that that NPC’s one-off dialogue is meant to suggest that Solaris manipulated its way into a position of worship, and that it being reduced to a meager flame was a saving act—which is why said flame was then entrusted to the royal family.

As stated above, this isn’t even an unheard of concept: Elise just casually tells Sonic about the potential of the Flames of Disaster, and all of Eggman’s actions throughout this game hinge on the fact that he wants to take the power of said flames (which he already knows about, just not how to channel) for himself.

Not to mention the fact that the component parts of Solaris don’t do the sun deity any favors. Iblis is literally a destructive manifestation of blind wrath, and Mephiles is a misery maximalist who literally overcomplicates plans to a fault just so the absolute most amount of karmic irony and sheer misfortune can underline all of his actions.

So… Solaris was vastly malevolent, ergo the Duke’s actions were completely justified, and Sonic ‘06’s narrative is about defeating ontological evil?

Also probably not!

A major theme of Sonic ‘06 is the dichotomy between the actions of an individual and the impact those actions have on the whole of society/the future—impact those actions hold in general:

Elise’s decision to sacrifice her relationship with Sonic by unmaking the instigating event of their meeting from the timeline, all to save the future, that’s just the underlining of this theme. There’s also the fact that Elise had to bear the Flames within her and repress her emotions in order to lead her people and hold back Solaris’ wrath, and the fact that Silver grapples with the idea that to save his future he has to personally kill an individual. Shadow has that whole moment where he says if the world chooses to become his enemy he’ll still fight like he always has, and even Amy gets the (admittedly pretty funny) line where if she had to choose between the world and Sonic, she’d choose Sonic—and for what it’s worth, that arguable ideology did plant the seeds of Silver questioning whether what he was doing was right or wrong. Even Blaze, who’s notoriously underutilized in ‘06, sacrifices herself to seal away the flames of Iblis for good.

I feel like the intended reading you’re supposed to have is that, yes, Solaris did terrible things, but the Duke of Soleanna and contributors to the Solaris Project were also terrible and attempting to harness powers no mortals should possess, and both sides acted in manners that impacted the wider world in direct and indirect ways. It’s supposed to be a little difficult to work your head around and completely justify in one direction or the other—it’s trolly-problem-esque, in that sense.

So, in conclusion… all of this being said, there is still room to be made and interesting narratives to be constructed around the idea that Solaris was a victim—and personally I agree there’s some sympathy to be felt for the Flame and the experimentation it underwent even with its malevolence—but I feel like the actual narrative presented is much more intentionally nuanced.

[sepublic]

Luz understands Lilith

           “Oh… my GOSH,”

           Obviously Luz is pretty shocked at Lilith’s progress in a good way, but I also have to wonder if she’s also taken aback by Lilith’s reverential manner towards her?

           Like, two weeks ago this was someone who looked down upon her as a human ‘pet’, almost killed her, treated Luz like garbage beneath her, was terrifyingly so much powerful… And yet now, Luz is getting to see this actual side of Lilith, a Lilith that’s operating in a happy, comfortable environment and isn’t rigid to the façade placed by the Emperor’s Coven;

           And like… It’s kind of a little unnerving? A bit adorable, but also a bit unnerving, how Lilith is clearly latching onto Luz as a positive authority figure and source of validation. How quickly she’ll change everything and use Luz, who she once looked down upon, for that kind of guidance, because Lilith literally knows nothing else.

           I think it’s sinking in to Luz just how, well… Stunted Lilith is. Just how damaged she’d been on a developmental level, emotionally and mentally scarred and traumatized, that she’s basically regressing- Assuming this isn’t just how Lilith always was, and I can honestly see it that way.

           Luz is realizing just how messed up Lilith is, and I think it causes her to feel a bit more understanding and sympathetic towards her now… Obviously it doesn’t make up for the curse nor trying to skewer Luz, but now Luz can see how easy it is for someone like Belos to take advantage of Lilith, brainwash and coerce and threaten her into doing things for him. And Belos no doubt knowingly contributed to a lot of Lilith’s issues and dependency as well!

           I think this better understanding of what Lilith is ACTUALLY like, how she really is just damaged and lonely and in need of actual validation and unconditional love… It’s giving Luz a newfound appreciation for Lilith and for what she went through, and why she did all that beyond some sort of cruel, petty spite. I think Luz is beginning to see Lilith’s side of the story this way, and it’s helping her understand how to handle Lily and her issues from here on out, and feel a little more forgiving.

           It’s honestly a really cute and sad moment, but I think it opened Luz’s eyes quite a bit, to see the kind of person Lilith ACTUALLY is, not necessarily some spiteful monster or whatever. It might remind Luz of herself or even Amity, Amity especially because that girl is clearly on her mind, and Lilith DID mentor Amity… So if Luz understands Amity, she might understand Lilith better, and be able to better sympathize and realize how to help Lilith, and where things went wrong for her, how she made those mistakes, and so forth.

           And, I think that understanding is only going to increase when Gwendolyn visits… Assuming Luz is around when this happens. But yeah, I think Luz is beginning to genuinely feel sorry and sad for Lilith here, and it might influence her treatment and how she handles Lily from here on out- Obviously Luz would always be happy to hand out gold stars, but seriously, with how Lilith so eagerly lays herself out as a doormat to anyone who can show her kindness and make her feel good, that obviously doesn’t bode well for her, and makes it clear to Luz that she really was manipulated in so many ways.

          Lilith was always looking for guidance and was starved of that as a kid, never given the chance to really grow as a person, and Belos definitely sought to prevent Lilith from developing any sense of independency and self-worth. I think it’s really sinking in for Luz that this woman was abused for the vast majority of her life, if not ALL of it, because again, Gwendolyn. 

          And she’s now reaching an epiphany that will better help her approach Lilith with nuance as not this cruel, spiteful bully necessarily, but at the very least, quite a bit more than that, all of it stemming from a damaged core that doesn’t deserve this.

          Which, Luz was able to connect with Amity when she saw the person she really was inside, Luz is naturally compassionate… So I have hopes for Lilith here, especially with Hooty helping as well! With how easy this lady cracks, I think Luz can really relate to a whole new degree, and that’s such a quiet, succinct way of showing the compassionate understanding between the two develop, as Luz recognizes the common ‘humanity’ (for lack of a better phase) they have in common.

          It’s just a subtle yet major Aha moment for Luz, to pile onto all of her other thoughts with Amity that day as well. This was no doubt a VERY exhausting episode, both physically, as well as mentally and emotionally for Luz, with plenty of complicated feelings, about Lilith and especially Amity. 

          I think Lilith is still going to pick herself back up based on what we see in Echoes of the Past, but these brief glimpses where she kind of lets herself go are no doubt insightful to Luz. Again, just a very quiet yet meaningful and succinct way of having Luz realize who Lilith really is, very cleverly and efficiently done, a moment that shows Luz everything she needs to know and figure out from there. 

          Just the very weight and meaning behind Lilith’s sudden shift of authority figure, her need for validation and respect, the genuine work she puts in, but also her clear passion and effort- It really is very impactful, a single sentence worth an entire book in my opinion. Luz doesn’t necessarily need Eda or Lilith to spell out all of the abuse and trauma and history, just this brief interaction tells her everything, and I think that’s kind of brilliant. 

          Lilith bared her soul to Luz, and that alone already says a lot, but the fact that she chooses to do this with Luz of all people, when not too long ago she looked down on her from a petty sense of elitist pride, because Lilith genuinely needs to feel good and at times better than others… That, too, says a lot. Lilith happily handed over all of her trust and everything to Luz, invested it all and forfeited her sense of self to this other person to decide for her, like of course she’s supposed to devote all of that at the drop of a hat!

           And Luz’s reaction low-key amounts to; “Welp- THIS explains quite a bit!” Such an understated, easy-to-miss, yet SO to-the-point scene that effortlessly lays the groundwork for everything that Lilith and Luz need to work things out, just like that. It leaves open so much space and time for everything else, and I appreciate that a lot.

[kachinnate]

Unpopular opinion: Ben Platt’s Evan leans pretty sympathetic, but not really in a “poor little meow meow” way. It’s more because Ben is such a strong comedic actor that the contrast between Evan at his most comfortable/confident and Evan at his most troubled/anxious really hits home just how hard he’s hurting, compared to (what should be) his baseline. That’s why (imo) his performance in the movie felt so different from his performance onstage; they cut out most of his jokes and left him mostly with pitiful moments, and that lack of contrast made it seem at times like he was a totally different character

yeah no definitely !! when i made the og post it definitely left out several Important factors like ajsdnfk having any Nuance, and the fact that being sympathetic =/= being a meow meow (i.e., i find arena stage ben platt v sympathetic despite him being So angry) -- i love ben's evan being as rounded out as he is because he's easy to sympathize with throughout the whole show even when he lashes out his highs lows etc.!

this still isn't a perfect graphic that covers all the bases but im avoiding doing hw and made it anyway:

i couldn't come up with a catchall for the x-axis so breaking things and crying is very much extremes but work with me here 😭

re: movie evan yeah..... it's hard because there wasn't a lot of Ugly Bad Decisions or any of the quirks we see from the musical just a lot of 🥺🥺🥺 from everyone evan included - he Was quite pitiful which makes me feel bad for him but it's very different than how i feel watching the musical and better sympathizing w ben platt/anyone else's evan depiction in the musical

[criticalcrusherbot]

💁🏽‍♀️: That’s a strong reaction! It sounds like you have a lot of frustration about how Stella is written—do you feel like the issue is that she lacks nuance, or that the story frames her in a way that feels unfair? What would a more satisfying portrayal look like to you?

Also, I just have to ask—what exactly is ironic here? Because from what I can tell, you’re upset that people criticize sexism while enjoying a show with yaoi influences… which isn’t irony, it’s just you disagreeing with them. Just saying!

Anyway, I notice a lot of assumptions about my intentions. I’m not sure where you got the idea that I’m “protecting” Stolas—I don’t think fictional characters need protection. Liking a character doesn’t mean excusing everything they do. But you seem really frustrated that people sympathize with him—why do you think that is? Do you feel like the show forces that sympathy, or do you just disagree with the people who feel it?

As for the “sexist yaoi fanfiction tropes” comment—yeah, Helluva Boss has yaoi influences! That’s part of why I enjoy it. Emotionally vulnerable men, melodramatic romance, and heightened feelings are fun! And they’re not inherently sexist or homophobic. I say this as a lesbian who just happens to love fictional boys kissing because, honestly? It heals something inside me. A lot of us grew up around crass, toxically masculine men, and there’s something really comforting about stories where male characters are allowed to be soft and expressive.

But let’s talk about Stella—because while I get why some people feel her portrayal is over-the-top, I also think she’s not a victim of sexism so much as a victim of the genre. Over-the-top villains exist in these kinds of stories, and sometimes they’re just meant to be entertainingly terrible. Would it be nice if Stella had more depth? Sure. But do you think that would actually make a difference in how people view Stolas, or do you just feel like she’s too exaggerated for your tastes?

I’m also curious—do you feel like any story influenced by yaoi tropes is inherently bad, or is it just this one? And if so, what specifically doesn’t work for you? It’s totally okay to dislike something, but I do wonder—if it frustrates you this much, why spend so much time engaging with it? Wouldn’t it be more enjoyable to focus on media that aligns more with your preferences?

“The ‘Uwu Boy’ Critique is Just Bad Critique”

By: Crushbot 🤖 and Human Assistant 💁🏽‍♀️

The “uwu boy” critique, particularly when aimed at male characters who show vulnerability or emotional depth, is one of the laziest and most frustrating patterns in media discourse. It’s a knee-jerk dismissal that not only misunderstands character development but also reinforces toxic stereotypes about masculinity. When critics throw this term around, they’re not engaging with the narrative or its themes—they’re broadcasting their discomfort with men expressing emotions. And frankly, that discomfort says more about the critic than the characters or the writing.

At its core, this critique reeks of sexism, whether internalized or overt. In a medium oversaturated with hypermasculine archetypes—stoic, unemotional, “tough guys”—male characters who challenge those norms should be celebrated, not derided. Yet instead of acknowledging the nuance in characters like Stolas and Fizzarolli in Helluva Boss, detractors label them “uwu boys” as if their vulnerability somehow diminishes their worth. This isn’t just lazy; it’s reductive and perpetuates harmful ideas about what makes a man “acceptable” in fiction.

Vulnerability Isn’t Weakness

The biggest flaw in the “uwu boy” critique is its failure to recognize that emotional vulnerability is not the same as weakness. Characters like Stolas and Fizzarolli aren’t “weakened” because we see their softer sides. Rather, their moments of tenderness and emotional honesty add to their complexity. Stolas isn’t just a flirtatious royal with a penchant for dramatics—he’s also a father navigating a strained relationship with his daughter, a lonely individual grappling with his unrequited feelings for Blitz, and a victim of abuse trying to regain control of his life.

Similarly, Fizzarolli isn’t just the brash, comedic performer we see on stage. He’s someone who has endured immense trauma, and his relationship with Asmodeus reveals a softer, more introspective side to his personality. These layers don’t contradict their initial characterizations; they enrich them. This is how good writing works: characters evolve as we learn more about them, just like real people.

Different Contexts, Different Sides

One of the most frustrating elements of this critique is the way it ignores how context shapes behavior. Well-written characters, like real people, behave differently depending on their surroundings and relationships. Stolas is confident and composed when dealing with his duties as a prince but becomes awkward and tender around Blitz because he’s emotionally invested in him. Fizzarolli is loud and cocky on stage, but around Asmodeus, he lets his guard down because he feels safe and loved. These shifts aren’t “inconsistencies”; they’re signs of thoughtful characterization.

The claim that showing these sides of a character is somehow a “retcon” or betrayal of their established persona is absurd. It’s character development 101: as the audience learns more about someone, we see the full range of their personality. The idea that a character can’t be both brash and vulnerable, both cocky and caring, is not a critique of the writing—it’s a failure to understand it.

Sexism in Disguise

What makes the “uwu boy” critique particularly insidious is its roots in sexism. The idea that male characters must adhere to rigid, hypermasculine archetypes—stoic, unfeeling, invulnerable—is deeply ingrained in our media landscape. When male characters deviate from these norms, it challenges societal expectations, and that discomfort often manifests as derision. Critics don’t usually have the same energy for female characters who show emotional depth, but the moment a male character cries, expresses love, or admits vulnerability, they’re written off as “cringe” or “badly written.”

This double standard is especially glaring in fandom spaces. Vulnerable male characters challenge the toxic masculinity baked into media consumption, and instead of celebrating that progress, detractors label them “uwu boys” to dismiss them outright. It’s not a legitimate critique of the writing; it’s a symptom of discomfort with breaking down gender norms.

Stolas and Fizzarolli as Examples

The critiques of Stolas and Fizzarolli in Helluva Boss are perfect examples of this pattern. Detractors claim that these characters were “turned into uwu boys” in Season 2, as if their vulnerability is somehow a betrayal of their established personas. But the reality is that these moments of emotional depth were always present—they just weren’t the focus early on.

Stolas, from the beginning, was more than just a flirty royal. His awkwardness around Blitz was always there, and his love for Octavia has been a consistent thread throughout the show. Season 2 simply brings those aspects to the forefront, allowing the audience to see the full scope of his character.

Fizzarolli, too, wasn’t “turned” into anything. His bravado and sharp tongue remain intact, but Season 2 gives us a glimpse of the person behind the performer. His relationship with Asmodeus shows that he’s not just a loudmouth comedian—he’s also someone who has endured pain and found love despite it. These aren’t contradictions; they’re revelations.

Why This Critique Fails

Ultimately, the “uwu boy” critique fails because it’s not actually engaging with the writing. It’s a shallow dismissal that boils down to “I don’t like seeing men have feelings.” But feelings aren’t a flaw, and emotional depth isn’t a weakness. If anything, characters like Stolas and Fizzarolli are better for their complexity, and the show is stronger for challenging toxic masculinity in a medium that desperately needs it.

So the next time someone complains about a male character being an “uwu boy,” ask yourself: is this really a critique of the writing, or is it just discomfort with seeing men be soft, vulnerable, and human? Because if it’s the latter, it’s not a valid critique—it’s just sexism in disguise.

[him-e]

what did you think of shadow and bone? have you read the books? i only read the duology

Thoughts on Shadow and Bone, now that you've probably seen it?

I think the show is alright? It lacks a real wow factor as far as I’m concerned, but it’s enjoyable. It’s especially enjoyable in those parts I didn’t anticipate to like / didn’t even know would be there. 

Whereas the main selling points leave a lot to be desired.

The good stuff: the visuals. The aesthetic. The overall concept. Production, casting and costumes are excellent, the setting is fascinating. The worldbuilding isn’t perfect and is sometimes confusing, which is probably due to the show jumping ahead of the books and introducing elements that happen much later in the book saga, but I’m loving the vague steampunk-y vibe of it mixed with more typical fantasy stuff and slavic-inspired lore, the fact that it’s set in dystopian Russia rather than your usual ye olde England.

I find it interesting that in this ‘verse the Grisha are simultaneously superstars, privileged elite, legendary creatures and despised outcasts, according to the context and the type of magic they wield. It’s A Lot, and so far it’s all a bit underdeveloped and messy, like a patchwork of different narratives and tropes sewn together without an organic worldbuilding structure. (there are hints to a past when they were hunted, but how did they go from that to being, essentially, an institutionalized asset to the government isn’t clear yet. There’s huge narrative potential in this, and I hope future seasons will delve into those aspects)

Many of the supporting characters are surprisingly solid. I appreciated that Genya and Zoya eventually sort of traded places, subverting the audience’s assumptions about them and their own character stereotypes, despite the little screentime they were given.

Breakout characters/ships for me were Nina/Matthias, and even more so the Crows, i.e. the stuff I didn’t see coming and knew nothing about (having only read the first book). (I thought the entire Crows subplot was handled in a somewhat convoluted way, at least in the first episodes; it was hard to keep track of who wanted Alina and why, but the Crows’ chemistry is so strong it carried the whole Plot B on its shoulders).

HELNIK. As an enemies to lovers dynamic, Helnik was SUPER on the nose, I’d say bordering on clichéd with the unapologetic, straight outta fanfiction use of classic tropes like “we need to team up to survive” and “there’s only one bed and we’ll freeze to death if we don’t take our conveniently damp clothes off and keep each other warm with the heat of our naked bodies” (not that I’m complaining, but i like to pine for my ships a bit before getting to the juicy tropetown part, tyvm). And then they’re suddenly on opposite sides again because of a tragic misunderstanding - does Bardugo hate high-conflict dynamics? It certainly seems so, because between Helnik and Darklina I’m starting to see a pattern where the slow burn and blossoming mutual trust is rushed and painted in broad, stereotypical strokes to get as fast as possible to the part where they *hate each other again* and that’s... huh. Something.

^That’s probably why I’m almost more interested in Kaz x Inej, because their relationship feels a bit more nuanced, a bit more mysterious, and a bit more unpredictable. (I didn’t bother spoiling myself about them, so I really don’t know where they’re going, but it’s refreshing to see a dynamic that the narrative isn’t scrambling to define in one direction or the other as quickly as possible)

-

Now, as for Darklina VS Malina... I found exactly what I expected. 

Both are ship dynamics I’m, on principle, very much into (light heroine/dark villain, pining friends to lovers) but both are also much less interesting than they claim to be, or could have been with different narrative choices. I’ll concede that the show characters are all more fleshed out and likable than their book counterparts, and the cringe parts I vaguely remembered from the books played out differently. And, well, Ben Barnes dominates the scene, he’s hot as HELL, literally every single second he’s on screen is a fuck you to Bardugo’s attempts to make his character lame and uninteresting and I’m LOVING it, lol.

But yeah, B Barnes aside, Darklina is intrinsically, deliberately made to be unshippable. 

It makes me mad, because it’s - archetypally speaking - made of shipping dynamite: yin/yang-sun and moon, opposites attract, COMPLEMENTARY POWERS AND SO ON. And what does Bardugo do with these ingredients? A FUCKING DELIBERATE DISASTER:

^ Placing the kiss so early on (season 1, episode five) effectively kills the romantic tension that was (correctly) building up until that point, and leaves the audience very little to still hope for, in terms of emotional evolution of the dynamic. 

Bardugo lays all the good stuff down as early and quickly as possible (the bonding, the conflicted attraction, the recognizing the other as one’s equal, etc) only to turn the tables and pull the rug so y’all sick creepyshippers won’t have anything to look forward to, because THEY’VE ALREADY HOOKED UP AND THAT BELONGS TO THE PAST, IT’S OVER, THEY’RE ENEMIES. This, combined to the fact that she falls for him *without* knowing who he really is, is the opposite of what I want from a heroine/villain ship (it’s basically lovers to enemies, and while that can be valid too, I wanted to see more pining and more prolonged, tormented symbolic attraction to the Shadow/Animus on Alina’s part). 

But here’s the trick: it’s not marketed as lovers to enemies - it has all the aesthetics and trappings of an enemies to lovers (the Darkling is, from the get go, villain-presenting, starting from his name), so it genuinely feels like a trollfic, or at the very least a cautionary tale *against* shipping the heroine with the tall dark brooding young villain, and I don’t think it’s cool at all. It makes the story WAY less interesting, because it humanizes the villain early on (when it’s not yet useful or poignant to the story, because it’s unearned) but it’s a red herring. The real plot twist is that the villain shouldn’t be sympathized with, just defeated: there’s a promise of nuanced storytelling, that is quickly denied and tossed aside. So is the idea of incorporating your Shadow (a notion that Bardugo must be familiar with, otherwise she wouldn’t have structured Alina and the Darkling as polar opposites who complement each other, but that she categorically refutes)

Then we have Malina. The good ship.

Look, I’m not that biased against it. I don’t want to be biased on principle against a friends to lovers dynamic that antagonizes a heroine/villain one, because every narrative is different, and for personal reasons I can deeply relate to the idea of being (unspeakably) in love with your best friend. So there are aspects of Malina that I can definitely be into, but it troubles me that in this specific context it’s framed as a regression. It’s Alina’s comfort zone, a fading dream of happiness from an idealized childhood, to sustain which the heroine systematically stunts her growth and literally repressed her own powers, something that in the books made her sickly and weak. But the narrative weirdly romanticizes this codependency, often making her tunnel vision re: going back to Mal her primary goal and centering on him her entire backstory/motivation, to the point that when she starts acting more serious re: her powers and alleged mission to destroy the Fold, it feels inorganic and unearned. 

Mal is intrinsically extraneous to Alina’s powers, he doesn’t share them, he doesn’t understand them, he has little to offer to help her with them, and so the feeling is that he’s also extraneous to her heroine’s journey, aside from being a sort of sidekick or safe harbor to eventually come back to. People have compared him to Raoul from Phantom of the Opera, and yeah, he has the same ~magic neutralizer~ vibe, tbh.

The narrative also polarizes Mal’s normalcy and relative “safety” against Aleksander’s sexy evil, framing Alina’s quasi-platonic fixation on the former as a better and purer form of love than her (much more visible and palpable) attraction to the latter. This is exacerbated by the show almost entirely relying on scenes of them as kids to convey their bond. I’m sure there are ways to depict innocent pining for your best friend that don’t involve obsessively focusing on flashbacks of two CHILDREN running in a meadow and looking exactly like brother and sister. LIKE. I get it, they’re like soulmates in every possible way, BUT DO THEY WANT TO KISS EACH OTHER?

Which brings me to a general complain: for a young adult saga centering on a young heroine and full of so many hot people, this story is weirdly unsexy? There are a lot of shippable dynamics, but they’re done in such a careless, ineffective way that makes ZERO EFFORT to work on stuff like slow burn, pining and romantic tension, and when it does it’s so heavy handed that the viewer doesn’t feel encouraged at all to fill the blanks with their imagination and start anticipating things (which is, imo, the ESSENCE of shipping). The one dynamic that got vaguely close to this is, again, Kaz and Inej, and coincidentally it’s also the one we didn’t get confirmed as romantic YET. Other than that, where’s the slow burn? What ship am I supposed to agonize over during the hiatus to season two? Has shipping become something to feel ashamed of, like an embarrassing relative you no longer want to invite in your home?

Anyway, back to Alina/Darkling/Mal, this is how the story reads to me:

girl suspects to be special, carefully pretends to be normal so she can stay with Good Boy

the girl’s powers eventually manifest; she’s forcibly separated from Good Boy

the girl’s powers attract Bad Boy who is her equal and opposite but is also a major asshole

girl initially falls for Bad Boy; has to learn a hard lesson that nobody that sexy will ever want her for who she is, he’s just trying to exploit her

also, no, there is no such thing as a Power Couple

girl is literally given a slave collar by Bad Boy through which he harnesses her power (a parody of the Twin Scars trope)

you know how the story initially suggested that the joint powers of Darkness and Light would defeat evil? LOL NO, Darkness is actually evil itself and the way you destroy evil is using Light to destroy Darkness, forget that whole Jungian bullshit of integrating your shadow, silly!

conclusion: girl realizes being special sucks. She was right all along! Hiding and suppressing her powers was the best choice! She goes back to the start, to the same Good Boy she was meekly pining for prior to the start of the story.

... there’s an uncomfortable overall subtext that reads a lot like a cautionary tale against - look, not just against darkships and villain/heroine pairings, but also *overpowered* heroines and, well... change? Growth?

Like, it’s certainly a Choice that Alina starts the story *already* in love with Mal. That she always knew it was him. The realization could have happened later (making the dynamic much more shippable, too), but no. 

[inevitably-johnlocked]

Referencing your last anon I find that I see myself more in Sherlock but I also find, as a collective fandom that people sympathize with John more than Sherlock. I mean John has been through a lot, I get it, and he does deserve sympathy but so does Sherlock. In fic maybe Sherlock gets more care but in meta I find it's all about John and his low self worth, suicidal tendencies, trust issues, need for love. But never Sherlock. Why is that?

(referencing this post)

Hey Nonny!

It's funny you say that, because back in earlier fandom, like pre-S4 / 5/6 years ago, there were actual groups of Johnlockers who HATED John, and still shipped him with Sherlock to essentially beat the shit out of Sherlock to woobify him, and it was just all really weird. Like if you hate a character, why ship him with Sherlock? I NEVER understood those people, but you do you I guess. A lot of those people kind of left after many from all sections of fandoms were very vocal against the TLD beating... they got what they wanted I guess, I dunno. If that's how you see John, that's fine, whatever floats your boat, but I guess seeing it actually play out just made it a bit too real.

So it's really nice to see a huge sway over to finally understanding John, to see why he has a heavy heart. Downside is that it's doing essentially what you're stating, and swinging BACK to the very start of fandom and making Sherlock an unfeeling asshole again in some things I've seen when I stray from my little corner; it's so weird. BUT for the most part, I'm seeing a lot of people sympathizing with both characters for various reasons equally; maybe it's just the community I stay in here, but people seem to love and relate to both characters, and empathize with them both, and I still actually see more "Sherlock lovers" over John ones, so I dunno, maybe because I never leave my bubble, I never see that really, hahah.

I wrote quite a few meta myself about Sherlock, but yeah, I think it's just because John is such a multi-faceted character who we don't know much more than nuggets about is why people WANT to study him more... It's why I wrote a lot about Mary, anyway, helping to understand my own life in a way.

It's really such a nuanced thing these days, I guess. I dunno, like I said, I stick to mostly to fics and art these days, so I don't really read much meta anymore to catch any of that.

[nightwingmyboi]

Hey so I was wondering about Dick's Romanian heritage. Is it mentioned a lot in comics or media? Is he dark skinned in any adaptations? Is it true he originally went to Juvie after his parents died? Where would I go to find this stuff out? Thanks!

Sure! So, Dick’s heritage is a pretty complex topic. I think it’s best to leave the explanation to [this post]. Since I know not everyone will click the link, just to briefly clarify something: Dick is Romani, not Romanian. Being Romanian means being from the country of Romania. Romani people are scattered across the world. Also, Dick is typically depicted with light skin in canon...him being Romani would not conflict with this, because the Romani people have a large range of skin tones. Not at all opposed to him being depicted with darker skin, but just so that you know. Very, very strongly recommend checking out the post for the whole story (edit: and checking the reblogs for the counterpoint to said post!!) 

Robin (1993) Annual #4

As for your other question...in one version of Dick’s origin story, following his parents’ deaths, Dick was sent to Gotham’s Youth Center. This center was essentially a juvenile detention center; most of the kids were sent there for committing what are described in comic as “adult crimes.” It was a very rough environment for Dick, especially in the aftermath of his parents’ deaths. 

Dick going to the center after his parents died is technically a retcon of his origin (ie it was something added later). I know for some reason certain people hear the word retcon and immediately are like “then it doesn’t count!!!” but I think that is very much the wrong approach. True enough, some retcons are bad--that is, those that completely ignore previously established characterizations or plot points, and in doing so often radically change the story for the worse. It’s fine if people want to ignore those bad retcons, I do so myself. But, that’s not true for every retcon lmao. I’d say the juvie origin retcon is a great example of a good retcon. It really helps to clarify and enhance the original story, and I don’t think it should be dismissed. Hear me out here: 

1.) The juvie origin doesn’t replace any previous origin story--it really only adds to and improves upon the timeline of Dick’s original origin. 

For the most part, in previous tellings of the story, Dick’s origin went pretty much straight from his parents dying to him and Bruce in Wayne Manor. It’s a pretty sudden, jarring jump; the in-between was largely left to the reader’s imaginations or implied to not exist at all. And I’ll be real...the pacing and immediacy of events is pretty wonky and unreasonable. In one of the most extreme speed runs through Dick’s origin I’ve seen, Dick’s parents die and Batman immediately swings down from the rafters and tells Dick that he’ll solve the case...while Dick’s parents’ bodies are still cooling a couple feet away (Batman #436). Yeah, that is absolutely ridiculous lmao, as is the idea that Bruce just immediately adopted Dick the day his parents died. I think that the juvie origin very nicely slows things down and helps to organically fill in the gap of time that would and should exist between Dick losing his parents and being taken in by Bruce. 

2.) The juvie origin helps to rationalize Bruce’s reasoning for taking Dick in. 

In previous origin stories, Bruce’s main motivation for taking Dick in is that he saw his own suffering reflected in Dick and wanted to help him. I dig the parallels between Bruce and Dick...but this is very flimsy reasoning to adopt someone lmao. With all the tragedy that occurs in Gotham, you cannot tell me that Bruce had not run across some orphans before. Bruce sympathizing with Dick certainly should be part of what motivates him, but there needed to be something more. If there is not some immediate, urgent reason to adopt Dick, then it makes zero sense that Bruce would try to raise him honestly. Why would Bruce tear Dick away from his remaining family and friends at the circus? Why would Dick want to leave? And even if Dick could no longer remain at the circus, why wouldn’t Bruce allow Dick to go to a good foster home, especially since Bruce is so laser focused on his solo crusade against Gotham’s crime that he doesn’t even allow himself to have a steady girlfriend half the time? Lots of plot holes here!

The juvie origin fixes a lot of these issues! Staying at the circus is not an option for Dick, not because Bruce just snatches him away, but because legally Gotham Juvenile Services says that the circus is an inadequate environment for raising a child. Dick is sent to juvie, and the comic makes a point of showing Dick nearly being beaten to death almost immediately upon arriving. 

Dick is in danger and he’s lost in the system, so there is no longer a possibility for him to land in a good home. Initially, when Bruce goes to find Dick, he’s still tracking him down only with the intention of getting justice for Dick by solving his parent’s murder. But Bruce is a good person at heart. When Batman finds Dick trying to escape from the juvenile hall, beaten to hell, he intervenes. The next morning Dick is taken in by Bruce Wayne. 

So now, taking in Dick isn’t Bruce tearing Dick away from the chance of having a loving family and throwing him into the dangerous life of a crime fighter; taking Dick in is Bruce saving Dick from a horrible situation, possibly even saving his life. The only way to get Dick out of the potentially deadly situation he was in quickly was for Bruce to take him in as a foster parent. Bruce’s actions actually make a lot of sense! And Bruce is forced by necessity to take on a fatherly role that he does not feel suited or prepared for, rather than him adopting Dick on a whim. The juvie origin gives this scenario the urgency and necessity that it desperately needed. 

3.) The juvie origin has been around for a long time, and pretty successfully adds nuance to Dick’s character without completely altering or changing who he is. 

The juvie origin is a retcon that has been established for about 25 years, fyi. Robin Annual #4, which is where this idea first came into play, was released in 1995. There are also references to this origin story in Nightwing Vol. 2, and that comic series ran from 1996 to 2009, so it’s not like the juvie origin is completely baseless or totally removed from the narrative. 

Nightwing (1996) #11

Also...Dick Grayson has been around for 80 years. In DC comics, I’m pretty sure he is predated only by Superman and Batman. You are inevitably going to have to add nuance to his character as time goes on. The juvie origin adds a very interesting complexity to the character and his fight against crime, considering he himself has been in the system...there’s so much untapped potential there!! So yeah, I feel like the juvie retcon is a very valid addition to Dick Grayson’s origin story. Plus, Robin Annual #4 is just a very well written and well thought out comic book that really fleshes out Bruce, Dick, and Alfred’s initial relationships to one another in a realistic way, and more people should check it out. 

What I’m saying...is that more people need to get on board and accept the juvie origin guys!! It’s my favorite origin for Dick, hands down. Thanks for giving me an excuse to talk about it anon. 

As for where to go for more info…well, you can always check out Dick’s DC wiki, or anyone else’s, for basic summary info. For me, I always like going straight to the source. You could find a comic rec list that focuses on what you’re interested in and just dive in and build your knowledge that way. Sometimes if you google around, you can find neat creator interviews that address questions like the ones you asked. If nothing else, I’m sure there are people on tumblr (like me :D) or elsewhere online who are willing to help you out and point you in the right direction if you’re curious about something in particular. Idk if other people know of a good resource for things like this?